Large Hadron Collider set to turn on; scientists get death threats

It’s so easy to make fun of people who are concerned about unintended consequences. Why, that’s never happened before. Maybe there is a point there. Even if the risk is small, why take it? Well, I suppose from a scientific point of view, who cares if the Earth is annihilated?

As to the claims: “[C]ollisions much larger than this happen all the time and no black holes have formed because of them.” I’ve also heard quite a different claim, from the same group of scientists supporting this project (and the reason we spend $8 billion while people die of hunger and easily prevented disease): “[T]he colliding protons will recreate energies and conditions last seen a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang”.

Well, which is it? Happens constantly, or first time since the Big Bang? Oh, it’s a DIFFERENT collision than what happens constantly. I see. So why pass along the propaganda that it happens constantly?

Because scientists, like everyone else, are motivated LIARS. It’s not about the truth, it’s about winning. And that attitude exactly sums up why scientists can’t be trusted with their “assurances”. Just like scientists can’t agree what matter is made of, what causes cancer, what causes consciousness, what causes global warming, etc. – but you have these self-appointed geniuses, who aren’t at all, who claim to have the answers and “know” there is no danger.

LIARS. They don’t know squat, but they are willing to risk the world, to advance their careers. In the end, that’s what it is all about: EGO. Greed. And, not to be Freudian, all of that is based on fundamental insecurity. There’s nothing grandiose about it – it’s plain out Ego.

There is absolutely nothing related here to Columbus. It is true that Columbus was correct, and the flat-earther’s wrong – but from that, we cannot conclude which scientists are correct in this case. It’s a stupid red herring and only an ignorant fool like AlteredStates makes arguments like that.

And it’s not just this experiment. As man plays God more and more, creates like, creates species, clones, etc., I have no doubt eventually someone will take a risk that is just a bit too much and destroy the planet. It is inevitable.

While I take the Bible with a grain of sale, the story of the Garden of Eden contains a lot of wisdom. If the apple is knowledge, there will come the time were taking the bite will cause a catastrophe.

And therein lies the frailty of the scientific model. It is amoral. And people who raise moral rejections, are rejected with infantile, moronic comparisons like AlteredStates has done – one would think it is a 3-year old child writing but I fear it is probably a Ph.D. scientist – ignorant, foolish, incapable of rational thinking, but willing to conduct a test that might end the world, confident in the abilities to predict – exactly that, which by conducting the experiment, they acknowledge they don’t actually understand. And this is leaving aside the probability of anomalous collisions and reactions that have not yet been identified.

To take an example, it was long thought that plasma of fusion reactions could be contained inside magnetic fields. Yet science has been unable to achieve this containment, despite massive efforts. This is just proof that science cannot control the forces that it is able to create.

But risk it all we will. Because, we have egos to satisfy! Big, scientific egos!

Maybe the whole think is a dud:
“What is the effect or purpose expected of the machine?”
“It will produce some fireworks and a magical rain of Skittles! Taste the rainbow!”
In the end, is it just an 8 billion gigantic machine to put 2 of the smallest particles to bump into to each other? I can do that on a larger scale by putting two flashlights against each other! no? why not?

Altered States, I am not a student of the Bible, it just has many pearls of wisdom, mixed together with many stories of absurdity – I’m certainly not one who thinks the Hebrews of thousands of years ago had a special relationship with “God”. Whether it’s an apple or other fruit doesn’t matter – the point is they were not to eat from the tree of knowledge or, the tree of immortality, and now, man is gouging himself on both. And in this story I do find some truth, not because it is in the Torah but despite of it.

While it was not “known” before Columbus the Earth was round, the joke about the analogies most people make about Columbus, hence my comment, is that Columbus was actually *wrong*. His theory was that traveling west would provide a shorter route to India from Spain than traveling east. His discovery of America, as you note, was serendipity (at least, for the Europeans – it was the start of a prolonged war of genocide for the locals). But this proves my point – scientists experimenting in the unknown are just as often wrong as right – hence the “assurances” that the collider will not create a micro-black-hole or strangelets, or if a black hole is formed it will quickly dissipate (Hawking Radiation), are pure hypotheses – they are not true theories, as they have not been validated with controlled experimentation or observation (though I suppose the current LHC course of collision is meant to validate that hypothesis – odd, that the expected results of a hypothesis should be used to prove the hypothesis and make it a “theory”, but those are the rigors of “science” these days – heck, we don’t know, let’s make it a “theory” and all is well!).

The bottom line: nobody has studied a mini-black-hole to observe its dissipation rate and while studies are planned for the outer atmosphere, (i) the density of matter under the earth in Switzerland is decidedly different than the density of matter in the stratosphere, and (ii) the collisions are different (cosmic rays colliding with atoms versus two protons smashing together).

You write, the planned collision will involve “particles whose combined speed will be beyond the speed of light.” You need to re-read your special theory of relativity, Dr. Houser. The combined speed is under the speed of light.

Oh, Blah!, I see, you are even smarter than AlteredStates! Your genius has hit that astronomical level, where you need not even bother with a single premise! Indeed, you have, in essence, an 11-word answer to all the critics, which, if I may be so forward, I can boil down to a single word: Scaredy-cat!

I wish only that I could picture the complex expressions on your face, as you utter that resounding, powerful argument, before which, all of us mere mortals can but tremble, in the misery that is our total and comprehensive defeat!

Yes, I have learned much today – I have learned that, alas, I need not worry about experiments which might destroy our planet, for the physics community is a brilliant, brave and proud one!

“Little will come out of this experience”.. What part of this ‘experiment’ don’t you understand? They are doing it to discover answers to many unanswered questions. They are looking for Matter, Anti-Matter or Dark Matter. Learn to listen, Listen to learn my friend.

Travy92, it’s not really as simple as “doing this to discover Matter, Anti-Matter or Dark Matter”. Actually, the LHC is supposed to detect the hitherto undetected and “theoretical” Higgs boson.

You see, in physics, unlike in a real “science”, things are “theoretical” instead of “hypothetical” whenever a “genius” speculates it to be true. Physics is basically a lot like art: an orange straight line on a white canvas is “art” when some “genius” says it is; similarly, in physics, an opinion is a “theory” when some “genius” says it is. Actually, physics is more like a religion – when the “rabbis” make some brilliant pronouncement, such as the utterly absurd Bing Bang “theory”, after deep meditation / study and communion with Nature, it becomes recognized as a “theory”, which is just one level below a “law”, rather than just being a hypothesis (i.e., an educated opinion).

But no matter how many times these “theories” (errrh, “opinions”) in physics are disproven, you wouldn’t get your Ph.D. in physica unless you are willing to suspend all disbelief and take each other “theory” to be true. You see, the test of a true physicist is to believe as he is told, to swallow the opnions of the masters as revealed to them by Nature.

In essence, physics, like the entire rest of the secular-humanist world, is just another religion. And, as one can see by the pokes at Catholacism on this page and on virtually every other secular humanist page, every bit as arrogant, intolerant and clueless (the latter part being particularly true outside the “science” context, since in “science”, at least some modest deference is paid to the scientific method, which, apart from its shoddy implementation in the field of physics and non-existence in most other secular humanist belief systems, is a fine process) as every other religion.

Anyway, besides this digression, to the extent anything is learned in this unknown and unpredictable experiment, there is one thing I can predict with absolute certainty: if this experiment does not in fact obliterate this planet, the knowledge gained from it WILL be used to construct weapons that will have that capability.

But you see the scientists don’t care about that. They have a career to build. Sure, they will pontificate about knowledge, hee hah, but as any student of criminal law knows, you are not responsible only for the intended consequences of your actions, but also the foreseeable (or, in this case, obvious) actual consequences.

Nevertheless the people who develop the weapons of total destruction sleep well at night, knowing they have secured for themselves another grant, and, if they are lucky, a place in history (at least, until their discovery is used to end history, but, they tell themselves, that’s not their fault, they are pure as snow – giving the knowledge to manufacture a nuclear device to Hitler or al Qaeda is not bad, in their “scientific” view of the world, because, you see, they are only interested in knowledge, and are not responsible for the consequences of its use.)

It is neither possible nor necessary to educate someone who never questions anything at all.

AKA the majority of people on this planet.

The only important question is, how can we increase the number of people who are willing to question, at a faster rate than unwanted babies are brought screaming into this world? This is the only and most important thing that may in fact wind up saving the human race….

When 9-11 happened, I wasted 2 days worrying about the world and dying and neglected my work – to the detriment of only myself.
LHC be damned… I have a life to lead!
If it’s not on the news 24-7, it ain’t worth bothering about.

according to quantum physics it will be the end of the world and also not the end of the world its your choice

Hey Pendragon II -

I neglected to point out, as you quote the genocidal language from Deuteronomy, I would note that both Fascism and Communism are strands of secular humanist philosophy – as is the “War on Terror”. All have their justifications, if you can open your mind enough to consider and evaluate them. Which I doubt given that, pardon me for stereotyping, you seem to fit into the mold of the citizen who supports only exactly that which your surroundings at the moment happen to hand you, until your surroundings hand you something else, which then becomes the religion you wish to impose on everyone else.

So my “hypotheses” – or “theory”, if your are a theoretical physicist ;-) – is that you support the “War on Terror” but oppose Nazism and Communism, and that you have no idea of how the neo-con ideology underlying the “War on Terror” relates to Communism or, for that matter, Nazism.

Xenophobe -

It’s on already, but at relatively low-power mode. High-energy collisions will start in late October.

Pendagron -

My reference to Biblical stories? Have you been talking to my orthodox twin?

I can find just as many ridiculous quotes from “science” and “secular humanism” as you find in the Bible. Why, have you been reading the press lately? The government tells us Russia is evil for invading Georgia “unprovoked”, when everyone actually agrees Georgia attacked S. Ossetia first, and says sovereignty and territorial integrity cannot be violated, while at the same time having invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, and currently invading Pakistan (and undoubtedly also Iran), etc. Meanwhile we are told Israel can do whatever it likes to “defend itself”, including use of cluster bombs in civilian areas, whereas Russia cannot. I just bring this up since this idiocy is relatively recent, but the idiocy of secular humanism is actually far worse than that of the Bible – on the latter you can debate as to its values but it is not nearly as internally contradictory as secular humanism.

To say Hitler and Bush are acting on religious rather shows your ignorance. Invoking the name of God does not make you religious. Obviously you have not studied Nazism to see its underlying theories and beliefs, but they are decidedly not Christian (and I am not basing this on their actions but their underlying philosophy). Obviously since most Germans were Christians the Nazis had to frame their arguments in the language of Christianity, but I don’t wish to bore or insult you with an exposition on the basics of propaganda, with which I am sure you, of such divine intelligence, are intimately familiar.

As to history, I doubt you know very much of it at all – aside from the “truth” you learned in your junior high school class. By the way anyone with more than a base understanding of history knows there is no “truth” of history. Heck, we can’t even agree on basic questions regarding what is happening today. History you learn in junior high school is the propaganda of the victors, that’s about the best way to sum it up.

As to your hatefulness – that was based on you calling the Scriptures “faecal matte [sic]“. What, you think that is a sign of respect and adoration? And if indeed you were attempting humor, don’t quit your theoretical physics job.

Also I don’t have any hatred of scientists in general. But what I do dislike is people who are willing to risk the destruction of the planet for their own gain and ego. If in your book that makes me hateful, for that, I will plead guilty. And I have witnessed enough fraud in science to know that veracity is no more prevalent there, than on Wall Street or on Pennsylvania Avenue.

Unfortunately you don’t have a basic knowledge of physics, or the difference of theoretical or applied physics. Suffice it to say that there are no theoretical physics in my computer.

But I will state further: I don’t have a problem with theories. Since you seem to be rather slow in the uptake, I will repeat my objection: to risking the survival of the planet based on an unproven theory. Get it, Einstein?

You are right the two quotes are unrelated. One has to do with a very different type of collision than the one being created in the LHC. But then again, hmm, ah yes, that was my point! Again, slow on the uptake, are we?

As to sources for the quotes – as you are a secular humanist, I don’t have high expectations for you, but, I would think even you would know how to paste a quote into the Google search box? Or would you like me to send you a list of instructions for that? Oh, yes, since this goes one step past the very basics, let me warn you, that you might want to remove the bracketed words and adjust the quote accordingly, that indicates its a modification to the original quote. Do you understand, or do you need a manual?

pendragon, I appreciate your appreciation of my sense of humor.

Thanks for your correction – you did refer only to a portion of the Scriptures as “faecal matter”. I guess that proves you are right, that you do respect them and their adherents.

I do provide sources for quotes where the posting form permits use of hyperlinks. This one does not.

Re-read my posts – I did not call all scientists liars. The context was primarily the self-appointed geniuses who make assurances about things they don’t actually understand, hiding behind their white frock so to speak, and in particular to the CERN / LCH LIARS, all of whom are clear liars as none of them can possibly make the assurances being mde.

You don’t know the first thing about Nazis. Just to pick one example, what does the Bible have to say about Aryans? Or about Jews who convert to Christianity? Compare and contrast with Nazi ideology.

Also Republicans are just posers as well. They pose as Christians so the knee-jerk Evangelicals vote for them. But as of today 7 of the 9 Supreme Court justices have been appointed by Republicans, but, lo and behold, that abomination Roe v. Wade is still on the books (abomination not in what it does, though I sympathize with the holocaust analogies, but in the fact there is nothing in the US Constitution that provides a basis for that decision and it was, quite frankly, pulled out of the Court’s ***). To say Republicans care about Christian values is again to confuse propaganda with ideology. A very superficial analysis, indeed.

As to theoretical vs. applied physics, of course all starts as theory. That’s not my point. My point is that theory shouldn’t be used in the manner it is – e.g. these LHC LIARS shouldn’t be saying their theory is a fact and hence not to worry. It is important to retain the distinction. At least you admit you are wrong and theoretical physics is not used in my computer – a yes to the obvious.

I never claimed the two quotes are contradictory. What I claimed, and anyone familiar with the basics of logic (you claim to be a scientist? where is your logic?) knows, was that the claim in the article above (”In reality, there isn’t a cause for concern because collisions much larger than this happen all the time and no black holes have formed because of them.” – yes, go back up and read, it’s there) is false. First of all it is debatable whether black holes form in these other collisions (perhaps they dissipate quickly), but more importantly, they are DIFFERENT TYPES OF COLLISIONS. That logic is like saying, “I walked into a light pole and was not injured by that collision, therefor I will also survive driving a screwdriver into my eyeball, since the energy of impact is much less.” or “Uranium in nature does not result in a cascading fission reaction, hence a nuclear bomb is impossible.”) You see – they are two different collisions and hence you cannot draw conclusions about one type from the other. This is rather elementary, Dear Watson. For the argument to work, they would have to have an additional predicate which provides that, for purposes of forming a black hole, the cosmic ray collisions to which they refer are identical to the proton collisions at issue in the LHC experiments. Needless to say, they have not proven this, nor can they.

Intolerance,

I said…

“Theoretical physics is responsible for the computers you guys are using and the energy that’s powering them.”

You said…

“Maybe, maybe not – actually, I doubt it, having actually learned how to design chips and computers there wasn’t too much theoretical physics involved – no Big Bang or Black Holes in my computer!”

I just proved that theoretical physics was essential for the development of your computer. So why do you feel the need to say I’m admitting being wrong when I’ve just proved myself right?

“Well, which is it? Happens constantly, or first time since the Big Bang?”

“I never claimed the two quotes are contradictory.”

You clearly state here that these quotes are contradictory ‘which is it’ means both can’t be true and hence are contradictory. I just proved they can both be true and are not contradictory. Why do you feel the need to deny you said it?

“Because scientists, like everyone else, are motivated LIARS.”

“Re-read my posts – I did not call all scientists liars.”

Re-read your posts! You did!

“I guess that proves you are right, that you do respect them and their adherents.”

I only respect the scriptures and their adherents in so far as some people need a comfort blanket in order to deal with reality.

“You don’t know the first thing about Nazis.”

Having read Mein Kampf, I’d have to say I do. Especially as it underpins the entire Nazi ideology, which has everything to do with the Christian far right and nothing to do with secular humanism. I’m interested to find out what exactly you think secular humanism is, as you seem to blame every ill you can imagine at its feet.

First of all the following are the tenets of secular humanism:

1. Secularism affirms that this life is the only one of which we have any knowledge and human effort should be directed wholly towards its improvement.

2. It asserts that supernaturalism is based upon ignorance and assails it as the historic enemy of progress.

3. Secularism affirms that progress is possible only on the basis of equal freedom of speech and publication; that the free criticism of institutions and ideas is essential to a civilised state.

4. Affirming that morality is social in origin and application, Secularism aims at promoting the happiness and well-being of mankind. Secularism demands the complete separation of Church and State and the abolition of all privileges granted to religious organisations.

5. It seeks to spread education, to promote the fraternity of all peoples as a means of advancing universal peace to further common cultural interests and to develop the freedom and dignity of mankind.

Personally I can’t see anything objectionable there or anything that has the remotest relationship to Nazism. On the other hand Mein Kampf is littered with references to Christian beliefs and it’s historic ties with anti-Semitism mostly as a result of the following:

“Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children”
Matthew 27:25

The fact that he aligned his Christian beliefs with Teutonic mythology is no reason to deny it’s Christian roots. Furthermore the vision of an ‘Aryan’ Christ had appeared centuries before during the Italian renaissance, it was nothing new. The fact is Hitler was no atheist, let alone a Secular Humanist. Oh and there is a very distinct difference between the two.

A quote from Mein Kampf for you:

“The anti-Semitism of the new [Christian Social] movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf page 119. )

And from a speech in Suttgart in 1933:

“And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity.”

What an amusing thread!

Intolerance – welterweight
Pendragon – heavyweight

Bit of a mismatch there! No wonder this thread has died. I guess Intolerance has run off with his tail between his legs.